Meet the Press : KNTV : April 21, 2024 8:00am-9:01am PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2024)

this sunday, wartime support. >> the bill is passed. >> after months of delays, republican speaker mike johnson moves forward with a historic vote on military aid to ukraine,

despite threats to oust him. >> he is serving ukraine first and america last. >> i have done what i believe to be the right thing. >> will weapons make it to the front lines in time? >> for months and months we have been diddling around where people are dying. >> is it enough for ukraine to win the war? i will speak exclusively with ukrainian president zelenskyy. on the defensive. as donald trump's first criminal trial begins, president biden's approval rating rises in our latest nbc news poll. >> under my predecessor, who is busy right now -- [ laughter ] >> enthusiasm for the 2024 election is still the lowest in decades. steve kornacki will break down the latest numbers. history lesson. presidential historian doris

kerns goodwin joins me. >> i feel so positive about what history can teach us. we have lived through hard times before. >> joining me for insight and analysis are chief washington correspondent andrea mitchell, democratic pollster cornell belcher and republican strategist matt gorman. welcome to sunday, it's "meet the press." good sunday morning. we begin with our new nbc news poll and the headline, president biden is closing the gap with former president trump. trump leads biden by two points in a head-to-head matchup, 46% to 44%. biden narrowed that from five points in january. when third-party candidates are

included, biden leads by two points, 39% to 37%. the president's job approval has ticked up to 42%, up five points from january. the last time we have seen a five-point increase for an incumbent president was bill clinton in 1996. there are still troubling numbers in the poll for biden. he trails trump by 22 points on dealing with inflation and the cost of living. it comes amid a major foreign policy development. six months after the president delivered an oval office speech pledging aid for ukraine, $61 billion in new funding finally passed on saturday, 311-112. >> the bill is passed. >> a moment of bipartisanship. 101 republicans and 210 democrats voted in favor. congress passed aid for israel

and taiwan, along with a measure to force bytedance to sell the app. new aid came after mike johnson, who once opposed it, did an aboutface and put his job onned line to get it through amid threats from three far right republicans to oust him. >> if we turn our backs, the consequences could be devastating. >> you are being asked to resign. >> do you plan to? >> no. as i said many times, i don't walk around this building being worried about a motion to vacate. i have to do my job. i have done what i believe to be the right thing, allow the house to work its will. as i said, you do the right thing and you let the chips fall where they may. >> the pentagon has said it has a massive infusion of military aid for ukraine ready to go. it comes as ukrainian president zelenskyy said that without this support we will have no chance of winning. ukraine's top military commander issued a bleak assessment of the army's positions on the eastern

front, saying they have worsened significantly in recent days, and the top american military commander in europe told members of congress, russia will soon be able to fire ten shells for every ukrainian shell. >> if one side can shoot and the other side can't shoot back, the side that can't shoot back loses. >> joining me now is the president of ukraine, president zelenskyy. welcome back to "meet the press." >> translator: good morning and greetings to you. >> president zelenskyy, it's an historic morning. i want to get your reaction to this major news. the house approving $61 billion in aid to ukraine. it's expected to pass through the senate. you have been asking for this aid for six months. in that time, you have run out of ammunition. you have suffered setbacks on the battlefield. will you get this aid in time to

make a difference? >> translator: it's been so important. i would like to say thanks to the congress for the bipartisan support. i'd like to say thanks to speaker johnson and president biden. indeed, it is so important, the support from the united states of america. of course, the support of the american people because, of course, the political decisions depend on the public opinion. this aid will strengthen ukraine and send the kremlin a powerful signal it will not be the second afghanistan. the united states will stay with ukraine, will protect the ukrainians and they will protect democracy in the world.

this is the show of leadership and strength of the united states. and i think, indeed, now we've reached this important moment. for half a year, we have been waiting. i would like to say thanks to all the team on my side and on the u.s. side. the team who did everything so that we would get this positive vote. today, we definitely need this aid. and, you know, we really need to get this to the final point. we need to get it approved by the senate. then we want to, well, get things as fast as possible so that we get some tangible assistance for the soldiers on the front line as soon as possible, not in another six months. so that they would be able to move ahead. >> you know, you said this week, president zelenskyy, that ukraine would have no chance of

winning without more u.s. support. and i guess the question is, can ukraine now win this war, or is the united states merely giving you enough aid to prolong this war? >> translator: thank you. i think this support will really strengthen the armed forces of ukraine, and we will have a chance for victory if ukraine really gets the weapon systems, which we need so much. thousands of soldiers need so much. and this aid should not be just spread in thin layer all over, but it has to end up in tangible weapon systems. some really crucial weapon systems, which are hard to get. the long-range artillery.

i really appreciate that it mentions long-range weapons. it's important, because we need people on the front lines. we have casualties because we cannot reach that far. our weapons are not that long-range. we need it. and air defense. this is crucial. these are the priorities now. >> president zelenskyy, as you know, this aid was held up for half a year because there is fierce opposition to sending more aid to ukraine, particularly amongst some republicans. how long should americans be expected to fund the war in ukraine? >> translator: the americans are not funding the war in ukraine.

they first and foremost, protect freedom and democracy all over europe. and ukraine is fighting, and ukraine is sending its best sons and daughters to the front lines. this is the price for all europe, for all of nato. it produces the price for everyone, including the u.s. as the leader in the nato. u.s. army does not have to fight protecting nato countries. ukrainians are doing that. it's only the ammo that the civilized world is providing. i think it's a good decision. that is why we do need to keep supporting while ukraine stands. there's no direct war between

u.s. or nato and russian aggression. so ukraine is still fighting, and ukraine is protecting all the others. >> but president zelenskyy, can you give americans a sense of the time line? will you still need as much aid this time next year? or do you think you can turn the corner on russia? what's the time line? >> translator: well, it depends on when we actually get weapons on the ground. as you said, if we get them in half a year, well, we have had the process stalled for half a year, and we have losses in several directions. the losses in men, in equipment, in the east it was very difficult. we did lose the initiative there. now we have all the chance to

stabilize the situation and to overtake the initiative. and that's why we need to actually have the weapon systems. when we get it, when we have it in our arms, then we do have the chance to take this initiative and to move ahead and to protect ukraine. but giving u.s. specific time line of the war, well, it depends on how soon we get this aid. there are so many variables, so many factors. sometimes when we protect the important line, you retreat because you don't have enough forces and equipment. and retake, it would take two or three times more. i'm not saying that this is how it's going to end up. but things are possible. i can give you an example with f-16. it's great example. the decision to supply f-16

fighter jets to ukraine was headed a year ago, one year ago we got the positive response. ukraine should receive these fighter jets so that not only air defense protect the sky, but we also have modern jets. a year has passed. we still don't have the jets in ukraine. it's very difficult to do any forecast. i would like us to be open. from the moment we get our hands on these weapon systems, from that moment, we can talk about time line. >> president zelenskyy, ukrainian intelligence suggests that the kremlin is preparing for a major offensive in the coming months. you have said by your own account that they are prepared to outgun you ten to one in

firepower by some estimations. will you be ready for that offensive? >> translator: we are preparing the personnel. the soldiers are engaged in training. i don't want to repeat myself, but we are waiting for the weapon systems, because we want to have the brigades fully equipped. some of them are exhausted. we need to replace them. but these new brigades, they have to have the equipment. russia wants to mobilize 300,000 people by june 1st. we are getting ready for this. by may 9th, russia expects that in the east of ukraine, they

will take a city. i visited the region recently. i talked to the soldiers. the soldiers say that they lack equipment. they need to fight russian reconnaissance drones, which essentially guide artillery. we need artillery shells. i hope we will be able to stay and the weapons will come on time and we will repel the enemy, and then we will break the plans of the russian federation with regard to this full-scale offensive. >> i want to ask you, president zelenskyy, about reports of a lack of morale. some 650,000 men who are eligible to fight, we are told, have fled ukraine. you have lowered the draft eligible age. but you have resisted a full call-up of all ukrainian men. what do you say to young men who

don't want to fight, who don't want to risk their lives in this war for their country? >> translator: this war is the war for the sake of all of us. this is our land. we don't have another place to go. the citizens of ukraine understand that. of course, there are people who don't want, who are not ready. but we do have the mobilization campaign. we have a draft. we do have strong army. we can be frank -- russia, of course, they have more people. people are forced there. so if someone in russia is deserting the battlefield, they

shoot them on sight. we cannot do that because we have democratic values, believe in the democratic country. to be frank, in ukraine, we have a lot of people who are ready to protect the motherland. but, of course, the motivation, the morale can go down, especially when they go to the front line and they see that there are no shells, there is no equipment. that's why the aid from the states is so important. people who were trained -- they need to be trained by professional people, and they need to have the equipment to be used so that they have this equipment not only on the training field but also on the actual battlefield. and then, indeed, they can show the performance on the front line. this is very important. >> president zelenskyy -- >> the morale will -- they will

defend the motherland. >> "the washington post" is reporting that donald trump has privately said he could end russia's war in ukraine by pressuring ukraine to give up some territory like crimea, like the donbas region. what is your reaction? realistically speaking, do you see this war ending in a negotiation with russia? >> translator: i would like to say that i'm a president of the country at war. rumors and different hearsay, i don't believe that. when trump comes here and would tell me their formula, then i would be able to provide the response. at the moment, i know that --

well, things -- i'm sure people who know him well, they know that you can never trust putin. it's impossible. so the strategy of ending the war should be based not on the words which putin says or some other people from his group says, something tangible that is dependent and democratic and i'm confident that everyone is interested in that. the political leaders are interested in having ukraine independent and sovereign and democratic. it's of interest for the republicans and democrats. >> president zelenskyy, back in

february, donald trump encouraged putin to invade nato countries that he doesn't believe are contributing enough to defense spending. what kind of a message do you think that sends to the world? >> translator: well, i don't know the details of that speech. i know for sure if ukraine fails, then putin definitely will invade the baltic countries. why? not because there's some interesting idea, strategy, but because putin wants to return the influence of the soviet union. and he really wants to retake with force, through war -- he wants to retake all former soviet republics and now independent states. whether they are in nato or not,

he doesn't care. that is why this is his strategy. of course, after the baltic states, poland and germany -- >> big picture, germany's top military official warned putin could be ready to attack nato countries in as soon as five years, following up on what you are saying. how big of a threat do you see putin to the west? >> translator: i think he does want go further. he wants to reinstate soviet union and soviet bloc. they do that in terms of misinformation. they drive different political groups and democracies, not only europe and latin america,

africa, they have the influence everywhere. they do this to split the world. the risk is high. i think this german diplomat said it's nothing about the wish of putin, but if putin is not stopped, then putin is ready to attack nato, even the sheer size of the weapons that they have. we have to be ready to stop him now. because we have seen that in georgia. we have seen that in other countries. if we give a big pause to putin, if we freeze the war where we are, this will enable him.

all his industry will start working not for the war in ukraine, but will start working for the war against nato. >> president zelenskyy, you are not just a president, you are also a father. you have survived multiple assassination attempts. tens of thousands of your fellow citizens have been killed and injured, millions have left their homes. have you ever lost hope? >> translator: i can never lose hope. we can never lose hope, we can never lose freedom. you can never lose independence. otherwise, you lose everything. you lose your faith, your security for your children, for all the children in ukraine are my children. i have to show example. if i lose hope, well, my children would lose their future in independent country. then we would lose ukraine as a

nation. it's not only about the territory. it's about ourselves, our identities. so we cannot lose hope. we have had different moments, some were very cruel. there were moments of challenge. i'm sure in the history of the united states, they also have many moments when the people had to fight for their independeind. we remember the period of struggling when many people lost hope or some people emigrated. but some people raised a banner, the banner of independence. some people were skeptical on both sides of the ocean, in europe, too. but people didn't give up. i think -- well, you've got the independent country.

the world got this great democracy. so we cannot lose hope either. >> president zelenskyy, thank you for being here on this monumental morning. we really appreciate your perspective and having a chance to talk to you. when we come back, steve kornacki is here with the results of our latest nbc news results of our latest nbc news poll. from pep in their step to shine in their coats, when people switch their dog's food to the farmer's dog, the effects can seem like magic. but there's no magic involved. (dog bark)

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in the last three months. >> coming after the state of the union. and he had a campaign blitz. >> in the democratic primaries such as they were, coming to an end. there's democrats rallying around biden. also, this slight improvement here for biden tracks with a slight improvement in his job approval rating. it sits at 42%. go back to our last poll. look at this. he was an all-time low for him last time around. now back over 40%. this is the highest biden's job approal has been since last spring. these are encouraging signs for joe biden. although, broader picture here, this 42% approval rating, history says probably by itself, not enough. he will need more. put this in context. these are other presidents. where were their approval ratings? biden is 42%. one thing, they were all higher than joe biden. the other thing, two presidents on this list who did not win

re-election, of course, donald trump four years ago. he was at 46%. back in 1992, george h.w. bush, he was at 43%. biden below both of those. the last time biden has been at this level, 46%, go to the start of 2023. the last time he was higher than that, you gotta go back to the summer of 2021, his first year as president. biden has work to do on that front. also, the erosion of public confidence on a number of critical fronts. we asked voters in this poll about a number of leadership characteristics. there are two -- only two where biden had the edge, abortion, we talked about this -- >> that's a big one. >> that's the biggest advantage. bringing the country together, biden performing better than trump. i think the headline is, add those together, you are not close to 100. that means a lot of voters think neither is better on that. on every other front here, we

talk about the erosion for biden. now you start to see it. look at these numbers. trump advantages on all of these. >> i stop here, because competent and effective. that was president biden, the crux of his campaign pitch in 2020. >> we polled this question in 2020. it was basically the exact opposite. it was biden with a ten-point advantage over trump. same with handling a crisis. biden had the edge over trump. how about this? the former president, the current president, we don't see matchups like this. who has the strong record as president? again, trump outpacing biden on that front. mention this one, too. necessary mental and physical health. we asked this four years ago. it was a wash. it's now a clear liability for joe biden. these are all troubling numbers. it's not say there aren't warning signs for donald trump in this poll. >> trump and his campaign are hoping third party candidate might give them a boost. our poll shows it's murkier than

that. >> we show a 46/44 race for donald trump. all those liabilities for biden, trump only ahead two. what the trump folks have been hoping, rfk, gobbles up votes. but, look what happens when we add rfk's name to the mix. suddenly, we have a new leader. joe biden, 39%, donald trump 37%, kennedy getting 13%. we see by a better than two to one margin, trump voters are flipping to kennedy, not biden voters. see it here, 15% of trump voters, when we add rfk's name, they go to rfk. only 7% of biden voters. a big change right there. >> defies conventional wisdom. >> absolutely. we haven't seen this in other polls. one final note is this, the question of enthusiasm. i thought this jumped out. the most engaged voters, those who voted in 2020, voted in the

midterm elections, those folks are voting for biden by nine points. where trump's strength is, why he leads biden, it's voters who don't typically turn out in many elections. didn't vote in '20 and '22. they are with trump by more than 20 points. the warning sign for trump relying on this is this. we are seeing the lowest level of interest since we started asking this question in 2008. are you very interested in the election? 64%, lower than any other time at this point where we have polled this before. again, lower interest, maybe those voters who in the polls are saying they are for trump, are we sure they will vote? >> we will see if that ticks up. steve kornacki, thank you for being here. the jury will hear opening statements in donald trump's first criminal trial. first criminal trial. what impact will itave on h (♪♪) imagine checking your own heart with medical precision from anywhere.

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andrea, i have to start with you. there's a lot to unpack. let's start with president zelenskyy. what were your takeaways? >> that he is worried about the surge, the russian surge in what we expect to be may, june, july. this six months was critical. they had a good chance of winning before the six months of no aid from the u.s. the weapons that only the u.s. can provide. after six months, they can lose. they can lose if the weapons don't get there soon enough. now it's supplypointed out the still not there. they were approved a year ago. they need the long-range weapons. they don't have the atacms. they are supposedly in the package. the administration is deciding. ukrainian officials say they have to get them. the russian artillery launches, not only do they have the ammo -- they don't have ammo, the manpower, ukraine doesn't have anymore, but russia has that advantage.

they can't take that artillery out because they don't have the long-range missiles. the u.s. has been worried about not letting them fire into russian territory. the ukrainians tell me they want to. they do have that restriction. they have restrictions that, frankly, that are not placed on israel. they are watching israel getting -- despite all the controversy over gaza, israel has the support that ukraine doesn't have. i think it was interesting that he ducked the two questions about donald trump. he knows this is a close election. the bottom line is he knows donald trump has said that ukraine could be forced to the negotiating table to give territory up to russia by next november if donald trump is elected. i think it's all possible that ukraine can still lose this war, despite their great spirit. >> i'm glad that you bring up two points. one, that he did choose his words very carefully on donald trump. the factor of israel, the fact

that ukraine is so concerned, matt, that the world has forgotten about them as attention has turned to the middle east, to what's happening in gaza. of course, house speaker mike johnson at the center of the battle for more aid for ukraine and israel. both were approved yesterday. there's so much opposition within his own party. three conservative republicans threatening to oust him over this. it seemed like the temperature was turned down a little bit yesterday. what is your assessment? how in jeopardy is his job? >> in the short-term, not as much as people think. the real threat isn't now. it's november. it's post-election. republicans will choose their leaders for the next congress. they will have to choose a senate leader. until then, democrats and republicans will cobble together a majority on a motion to vacate if it comes up. republicans want to hold on until then. let's face it, no one wants to

be speaker other than mike johnson. it was notable that steve scalise voted with johnson. notable who didn't, stefanic. >> president biden narrowing the gap with former president trump. not a big surprise. what stood out to you? >> what stands out is, first of all, great interview. groundbreaking. spot on. what stood out is, surprise, surprise, polls are closing. polls continue to get tighter and tighter. go back to our polling back in october of last year, donald trump is at 46%. what is it through all our polling, 46%? right now, 46%. the last election? 46%. his support stays solid. where i'm worried about or where i see you can see growth is i

think donald trump is at a ceiling and biden is close to his floor. where he is off most, among young voters. the other part about this is enthusiasm, which is really the headline is, if these young voters aren't enthusiastic and they don't show up and break for biden big, that's how trump wins. >> andreaandrea, pick up on tha. this is against the backdrop of donald trump in court for his first criminal trial this week. >> the fact is, we don't know how that will play. up until now, the legal cases helped him fund-raise, tell people he is a victim, energize his base. he has risen in the polls with every indictment. now we see him powerless. the judge is effective. joe biden is campaigning. the problem for joe biden and the democrats is, trump is

crowding -- the trial is crowding out everything else. >> mm-hmm. >> he does student loans. everything else is crowded out. it's the trump story. that's what happened in 2016 to hillary clinton. that could be replicated this year. i think it's really -- the enthusiasm issue and young voter issue is critical. as long as this war in gaza goes on, this is going to be a problem with young voters. they have an off ramp, rfk junior. your poll shows that he would hurt trump more than biden. it's very early in polling to say -- i think the white house -- i know the white house is more afraid of him. the family is. it was hard for the siblings to come out and do that. they did it because they think he hurts joe biden more than donald trump. >> matt, what about all of that? >> i was encouraged because when i was -- i was nervous all the

talk would come from trump, his message about himself and the trial. i was surprised going to the bodega was smart, the migrant crisis and crime, that are winning issues for republicans and trump. he needs to do that. a message not just about himself. >> how does the courtroom optics play? >> i think -- you are spot on about the -- him dominating the news, but it's negative. this is different. he doesn't look strong. he looks weak there. to a certain extent, i don't mind if he is on -- if he is in court every day dominating the news because it's negative. >> okay. great conversation. we covered a lot of ground. thank you. >> congratulations on a great interview. >> thank you. when we come back, as the athletes prepare for the summer olympics, we look back on the decision to boycott the games ter theaf (vo) antarctica... you have to experience it to truly appreciate the beauty,

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welcome back. we have officially crossed the 100-day mark to the 2024 olympics, as paris prepares to host the competition this summer. the olympics are not just about sports. they have also made history.

the united states led an international boycott of the games in moscow to protest their invasion of afghanistan. carter announced the decision right here on "meet the press." >> neither i nor the american people would support sending of an american team to moscow with soviet invasion troops in afghanistan. i have sent a message to the united states olympic committee spelling out my own position that unless the soviets withdraw their troops within a month from afghanistan, that the olympic games will be moved from moscow to an alternate site or multiple sites or postponed or canceled. if the soviets don't withdraw immediately, i would not support sending an american team to the olympics. >> you can watch the pair us olympics this summer on nbc and streaming on peaco*ck.

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welcome back. as she likes to say, doris kearns goodwin has spent most of her career writing about debt

presidents, immersing herself in their diaries and letters to bring them back to life. in a new book "an unfinished love story," she turns that attention to her marriage. before his death, she opened more than 300 documents and memorabilia with her husband richard goodwin who served as a speech writer for president john f. kennedy, a time capsule of their life in the 1960s. in her 20s, she was chosen to be a white house fellow for president johnson, one of only three women out of the 16 fellows selected and developed a loyalty and closeness to president johnson, which has lasted her entire life. i sat down with doris for a conversation on her new book and the resilience of america, even in turbulent times. you have written presidential biographies. this is a biography of your husband and it is also a love

story. what was the process like of writing this book as compared to all of your other incredible works? >> i was so used to writing about presidents who had archives. i would want to talk to them. i knew them because it took me so long to write the books. longer to write the book about world war ii than the war to be fought. i would always ask them questions. they never answered me. this time, i had this guy, my guy across the hall from me in the same study. i was able to talk to him. he could answer my questions. he had an archive that was -- a mini-archive of what presidents have, memos, diaries, letters. he saved everything in 300 boxes and decided when he turned 80 to open them. what it opened was a door to the 1960s, a decade i lived in. i was able to learn through him, starting at the beginning, with john kennedy, ending with bob bobby kennedy's death. >> you talked about after your husband passed, it was a struggle to finish this project

that was a labor of love. i found myself edging toward a commitment to finish the project influenced by headlines announcing divisions between black and white, old and young, rich and poor, divisions that made it increasingly evident that the issues from the '60s are the unresolved stuff of over everyday lives. >> that's what really decides me. i knew if i was going to work on it, it would take years. i would be writing as a historian, not simply as writing about my husband. once i realized the '60s had a message to today -- we look at the '60s in a sad way because it ended with violence, martin luther king and bobby kennedy killed. when you start at the beginning, it was a decade in which young people in particular were powered by the conviction they could make a difference. they joined the peace corps. people in the freedom rides and

sit-ins and marches against segregation, for the denial -- the beginning of the gay rights movement, the women's movement. the belief that if you work together, you can change the government. >> when you look across the political spectrum, do you see leaders right now who are meeting this moment where so many people wonder if our democracy will stay intact? >> i don't know that we are fighting it the same way we need to be. this is one of the most perilous moments. there are people in local areas and states and some in washington. the overall sense is, sometimes we become too much of spectators watching what's happening to ourselves. one of the thing is, the lowest place in hell is for those people who remain silent. i always feel positive about what history can teach us. we have lived through hard times before. these are hard times, however. it won't get better unless we

act. unless we take seriously our citizen responsibilities and use the qualities of character that we need to bring into politics. >> how afraid, how concerned are you that january 6th could happen again? >> because we're not remembering it correctly -- i was so certain as -- i was on television saying, this is going to change public sentiment just as certain things happened in the '50s that made people understand that slavery had to be ended. i thought it had. everything is so breaking news today. one thing tops out another. i thought the summer after january 6, when the hearings took place, that would change public sentiment. i think in the end, that the majority of the people understood what happened in that election. i think the majority of people are for the basic values that we are talking about right now for democracy. it's just a matter of them speaking out and recognizing that it is in danger. it's up to us. it's not up to somebody else.

it's up to us to save it. >> the republican nominee has yet to accept the results of the last election. within the context of this conversation and your concerns about the nation's democracy, how much of a threat do you think the democracy is facing right now? do you think the country can survive this threat? >> the real threat is when the republican former president says if he doesn't win, he won't accept the results of the next election. we may have a recurring battle for who is really elected each time we do this. that's a real problem. all the candidates when you look at the ones who lost, it's hard to lose, and every single one was able to say, as carter did, i promised i would never tell you a lie, this hurts, it really hurts, or al gore working on the concession speech that my husband was honored to help him on where he talks about the fact, the law of the land says it is lost.

i don't agree but i must do it. hillary clinton saying we cherish the transition of power. it makes you so proud of each one of those candidates. they had lost. they let down their constituents. they were able to make the transfer of power. it's an essential part of our democracy that has to happen next november. >> as we sit here today, how concerned are you that it may not happen? >> i am concerned that it may not happen. i somehow think if the majority of the people come out who have different values and they vote -- voting ask essential. it's the premium value. as lyndon johnson said, it's the one thing all the rest of our democracy depends on. what is democracy? throw a candidate out or you call him in. you either want him to come in or you want to throw him out. we have to be able to do that. if the majority comes out to vote and the majority never comes out in enough numbers to vote, not only young people, they have made a big difference in 2020 and 2018, 2022, and they

are saying now they may not vote if they are not happy with either candidate. again, if they only could know what we felt like in the '60s. you feel larger. you feel a sense of exhilaration. the word you used earlier. i hope they feel this election could turn on them. the uncommitted people and undecided people have to come out and vote. we have to just take the results of the election. that doesn't mean we know how it's going to happen. if the majority vote, then somehow maybe it won't be as close as we think it's going to be. then we will have a clear-cut choice. >> i hear so much optimism in your voice still. >> i think i was born that way. i think it's the only way we can live. it sometimes may sound naive. i remember thinking what i was -- when i was at the civil rights march, we're going to change america. maybe we didn't change america completely. but we made huge changes at that time. if you have optimism, at least you have the confidence if you act something will happen. it may take a long time. as martin luther king talked

about, the arc of the universe, that is -- it takes a long time. it it moves toward justice. i believe that. >> thank you, doris kearns goodwin for this incredible conversation. >> so glad to have been with you. that is all for today. thank you for watching. we will be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." ♪♪

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